Olbermann: Gay marriage is a question of love

Well great comment Keith but you're wrong; I think you need to read the bible more often.  True, no where in the bible does it say to protest against these people because all sin is hated by God.  But I say homosexuals can do whatever they want because God has turned them to their sin Romans 1:18-32.  And it's not just for homosexuals it's for all sinners, if we do not change our ways we will not inherit the kingdom of heaven and God will turn us to our sin. Galatians 5:16-26.  And do not compare me, as an African American, to a homosexual. I cannot change the color of my skin I was born this way. Homosexuals were not born this way because only God can create life and he made us in his own image so why would God make something against his own nature, it's an abomination.

Homosexuality is a lifestyle they chose to live this way and they could choose to change if they really wanted. Just like religion I wasn't born a Christian but I chose to live that way because something happened in my life that made me want to be this way.  Something happened to these people (who choose to be gay) in their life time which made them choose to live this way. Some people have hurting situations such as being raped by the same sex or simple situations such as they never had a boyfriend or girlfriend so they chose to go gay/lesbian. And I know I was tormented by homosexuality but I found Jesus.  I'm not saying that those are the only examples, but those are some.

Well get married but don't expect a real minister to perform the ceremony, because a real sold out for Christ minister will not go to hell for anyone.  These pastors have to give an account for themselves on the Day of Judgment.  And marriage is called Holy matrimony these pastors will go to hell the moment they perform Marriage under God.  I fear God just as some pastors do, but some will do it for the money.

Heaven forbid is see my daughter, who is only a one year old, kissing some girl in the club.  How do I explain to my child when she asks me "mommy why is that man kissing another man?" I don't even let her watch movies where straight couples are having sex. And I'm afraid that this disgusting lifestyle will be on her normal everyday television channels such as Disney and Nick Jr. 

As for me I will not protest against Homosexuals I believe the "don't ask don't tell" rule. I’m nice to homosexuals just like I am to anyone else. But If I must tell them anything I will tell them about Jesus and not about their sin.  Jesus is love Keith. John 3:16-17 and Acts 10:9.  There is therefore no condemnation for those "who are in Christ Jesus!" Romans 8:1-17  If you are walking with Christ then you no longer live by the sinful nature(Galatians 5:16-21), you live by the Holy Spirit and the evidence of having the Holy Spirit is Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. Galatians 5:22-26 

All I have to say is, in the words of Jesus Himself while he was on the cross "Father forgive them; for they know not what they do!"

As a straight man married to the same lovely straight woman for the past 59 years. we have been supporters of the gay community for years.

We were so very touched by Kieth's Special Comment tonight. He said all we have been saying and more.

This Nation needs to grow up when it comes to the gay community as we have with the minority community.

We could never understand how gays getting married affected our marriage??

That argument just doesn't fly. We have not been affected one iota since gays have been married in Massachusetts or California or Connecticut. Believe me when I say not one iota.

Two people loving each other and having a partner in life is so human and what a lonely life it would be if marriage wasn't invented.

Just look at the fury little creatures in the wild called animals. Many of their species live long lives with their mates. It is like God ordained all living things to have a partner in life especially humans.

We cannot let Prop 8 in California stand anymore than Prop 102 here in Arizona.

You cannot let the majority rule to take rights away from one sector of the population.

Our Constitution cries out "equal protection" for all.

The next thing will be votes to say you must wear blue on Mondays to guarantee the sanctity of the sky. That is how moronic Prop 8 and Prop 102 are in our society.

Thank you Kieth for your words and lets hope this is the start of repealing or outlawing laws that take rights away from others or this will be even a more lonelier world. 

Instead of a long, drawn out reply pointing out all the obvious flaws and out-right lies in the comment left by Philip, I will simply state this:

Philip, you are the embodiment of all that is wrong with allowing religion to interfere with the administration of state.

Philip, you and the willfully ignorant like you are what is wrong with this country, and what is killing this country's image the world over.

Philip, you are full of an ugly and loathsome hate, and I pity you.

Philip, then "your" God must be the biggest hypocrite of all. The God I choose to worship is all about love and tolerance. If their lifestyle is wrong in the eyes of God, it isn't up to you or anyone to judge them, it's between them and God. What are you so afraid of? It's not some "disease" you can catch. I think your bigotry is more about your fears, and has nothing to do with God.

David, very nice post - thank-you.

On the other hand... Philip, if you take the bible as your highest authority then that's fine for you. Most of the world does not. This is NOT the United States of christ, although that is apparently what many people seem to think.

Please learn to intellectualize this issue - and comments such as "health and moral riskd and dangers of the lifestyle" are pathetic and insulting.

I am now convinced, and I will work the rest of my life towards this goal: that until bibles are removed from our courtrooms, "under god" removed from the Pledge of Allegiance, and "in god we trust" removed from our currency the United States of America will never be a true democracy. I firmly believe that, having no disrespect for your beliefs - but they are your beliefs and not mandates for the rest of the country. Keep your god out of our government.

Isabella, I take note that you offer no substantive response, except the tired, burnt out line that essentially argues that God is love, therefore he must be tolerant of any indecency and sin, no matter what he has otherwise clearly said on the subject, essentially making him out to be a liar!  The God I speak about is not just my God, he is inverity, "God"!!  If you believe in the Bible, then show me where God excuses and tolorates homosexual conduct!  I can show you many to the contrary. .. let me know if you're interested and I will give you book, chapter and verse for a number of them.

If you do not believe in the Bible, then what moral authority does your position rest, other than uncontrolled lust?

As for me judging them, what an uninformes statement!!!  We both judge them!  I judge the behavior to say that the Bible condemns it, which it does (and not even you dispute that), you judge their behavior as moral and decent, though you provide absolutely no moral support for it. So please stop this nonsense about everyone that does not agree with you is judgmental, but that you are not!  It's a short sighted self-deception.

I will say this, that Christ shed his blood for all sinners, gay, straight, adulterers, any every other form of conduct that falls short of God's glory.  Theree are numerous Christians ex-gay organizations that tell great experiences of a voluntary surrenderd life in Christ that has resulted in a changed life.

Philip,

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Your people who fought for the right to marry whomever you wanted  are obviously hypocrites and have no faith within your own ideals.

"Love thy neighbor"

Obviously not.

,Do you find a deep irony in the fact that you quote from the same book that directly and repeatedly condemns homosexual conduct? Do you accept all of the Bible as your rule of faith and conduct, or are you on the cafeteria plan where you only cite to those passages that you believe agree with your position?

Now, here's the difficult question - from the plurality of passages that address the issue of homosexuality in the Bible, cite to me even 1 passage where God approves of homosexual conduct!

If you do not believe in the Bible, then what moral authority does your position rest, other than uncontrolled lust?

First and foremost, your beloved Bible is a very poor source of "moral authority".  This book has been used time and time again to justify the most barbaric practices.  The Bible can be used to support slavery, anti-semitism, genocide, misogyny, racism as well as your abhorrence of gay people.

Also, if this were a matter of "uncontrolled lust" do you think gay people would be bothering to fight for marriage?  No, they would probably just be screwing in rest-stops and bath houses according to whatever deranged misconceptions you have about gay people.

Theree are numerous Christians ex-gay organizations that tell great experiences of a voluntary surrenderd life in Christ that has resulted in a changed life.

How wonderful that people can live a life of total denial and subservience to archaic social norms.

Are we all so desperate to be ignorant of reality. All feelings aside the age for legal drinking was changed after it was reduced to 18 yrs. old back to 21 yrs. old because it was a mistake. The fact of the matter is that in either case of belief whether it be creation or evolution, there is but 1 common element: The fact of pro-creation in which it takes a male and a female. No- one is trying to stop the lifestyle that someone chooses. If two people of the same sex want to live together and love each other then so be it. That is their choice.But do we want to confuse our younger generation by saying to them that this is the norm? I would hope not.

  As for Mr.Oberman and the rest of those that think this overturn was made by people who want to stiffle peoples choice to love someone of the same sex, it's not.

 It is statement of the people to live your life as you want BUT do not expect to have the reality of the continuation of mankind be confused with it's ability to continue by stating that alternative lifestyle living will still allow it.

  Oberman's comparrisons were offensive. We do not want to stifle the ember of love. God know's we need more of it.

  He wants us to shut up and allow gay marriage to be accepted. I say shut up and love your partner anyway. This way no-one is offended.

  It's all about the minor tax breaks-STRICTLY POLITICAL-

His commentary was excellent. One of the first people I've heard that is actually discussing the issue not as a religious issue but as a policy issue. These rights are state and federally sanctioned designed to provide security and stability for a couple.

These are not rights given by a church. These rights are not granted because of any religious beliefs. These rights have nothing to do with religion. By the state giving gays these basic rights also does not iimplying that any church should change their beliefs. These rights allow all of our citizens, our communities, our country to become more secure and stable.

Philip-720902:

If you do not believe in the Bible, then what moral authority does your position rest, other than uncontrolled lust?

Rather a prideful opinion, that the Bible is the sole arbiter of morality; as if there was no morality in the world before the Hebrew tribes, nor morality in any other culture, nor morality without the external imposition of a tyrannical god.

But this is hardly surprising, since True Believers almost always figure that they have the "God-given" right to impose their personal beliefs on other, as if there is one sole eternal standard. Which is nonsense.

Sorry but as usual Olbermann equals hero. I am straight and I have gay friends. Im also an Atheist whose probably read more of the Bible, Curran, Torah, Old Testament, New Testament and what have you than most of the so called "Religious" folk I see. I am also African American from a truly Christian home. I mean truly because they actually follow the path of Jesus. Most of the so called Christians forget or never knew of Jesus Universal love and Tolerance. He said not to judge and that's what I see all the time.  Why is the issue of Gay Marriage an Issue? Are we in the stone age? Have the Anti-Gay Regime even read bible? And on another note more than half of straight Marriages end in Divorce some institution to fight so fervently to expel others from. And for an African American to jump on board with this lunacy is funny. I know discrimination and its always ugly whether your white, Jew, black, poke-a-dotted or even (and its hard for me to say) A Mac user is always UGLY. And further more always wrong. As an Atheist I charge you Anti-What Have Yous to do some soul searching.

"the tired, burnt out line that essentially argues that God is love"

You go ahead and view God in whatever light you want to, I prefer to believe he is a God of love. The bible is a book of contradictions. Explain something to me Philip. The bible also condemns incest, right? Then explain where the wives and husbands of Adam and Eve's children came from. I think this one verse says it all:

"And from that time forth, the sons and daughters of Adam began to divide two and two in the land, and to till the land, and to tend flocks, and they also begat sons and daughters."

We could go back and forth all day spouting bible verses that contradict each other. You like to throw the word moral around quite a bit. Who made you the moral police? Anyone who doesn't adhere to your beliefs, you judge them, and claim they are immoral. One thing I have found about your kind, those that claim to be so self-righteous, you usually have the most skeletons in your closet, and are far from moral. Don't you worry about my soul, it's intact. My moral compass is just fine. Worry about your own. 

I am a white woman married to an Asian man.  And I have a few friends and family who are gay, but even if I didn't, I don't see any real reason to deny gays a chance to show their love in the same way as anyone else.

This article really said it all better than I ever could.  I was especially struck by this passage:

I keep hearing this term "re-defining" marriage. If this country hadn't re-defined marriage, black people still couldn't marry white people. Sixteen states had laws on the books which made that illegal in 1967. 1967.

Marriage should be about love.  Every gay I know would have an easier life if they were straight, but it isn't who they are.  I keep hearing people talking about "choosing" that lifestyle.  What person in their right mind would choose to belong to a group who has so much against them?  And it seems to me that many of these people think gays are choosing between heterosexual and homosexual--they are NOT!  They have to choose whether to follow their hearts and be who they are (gay) or to be alone for the rest of their lives.  I know gay men who knew they liked boys romantically when they were 5 years old growing up in the south--when they had no idea that any other male in existence had these same feelings.  Tell me, where were they "choosing" to have these feelings?  They weren't--the feelings were just a part of them.  It's better to accept who you are than to deny your innermost self.  Denial is psychologically unhealthy.

I also agree with Olbermann on alot of things this is not one of them.  It is not about love between GAY folks. Marriage is DEFINED as UNION between MAN and WOMAN. that has been the definition since the begginning of time. It is not up to the government to change that very definition. It is okay for the gay community to be with whoever they choose for as long as they want but Marriage is something very sacred no matter what religion your apart of.  Even if it was to be ok'ed in California it will never be accepted in this society. It can't be. Being gay is fine but marriage is out the question just like having GENETICALLY MERGED KIDS is impossible no surrogated mother can change that. Why should we change our laws to make something that is not natural ok. Why should marriage laws be amended to fit what is not meant to be marriage. Homosexualisim is a lifestyle choice. Life can move on without it.  Heterosexualism ends and life will end right behind it.  For the short time gay marriages was allowed, Marriage lost its value to me. I'm happy California came back to its senses. Keep it up CALI!! 

Philip,

Here's the thing, my irony was fully known by myself because the irony that I find is that you refuse to follow your own beliefs!

That's right hone. I said: "YOUR beliefs."

I honestly could not care LESS about your bible, apparently just as you do not care. But let's continue just a little more for S'n'Gs shall we?

Your bible ALSO says: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." As well as: "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me."

Are you going to seriously tell me that you are going to institute the death-penalty for anyone who is not Christian?

Dear.... Oh dear.... I don't think that's going to go down too well given the millions of Americans who have fought and died for this country in the military who aren't Christian....

So could that be yet another part of your precious bible that you haven't upheld?

Seriously dude. Just seriously. Sarcasm aside, why is it that you guys only seem to take certain parts of the bible literally and not others?

So, don't give me or anyone else "the bible says" arguments. The bible says LOADS of things that you DON'T follow. You are just picking this particular piece because you WANT to and NO OTHER REASON!!! Which renders YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT USELESS!!!!

November 11, 2008

GAY FASCISTS STORM CHURCH

On Sunday, November 9, a band of about 30 gays stormed a church in Lansing, Michigan. Some were well dressed and were stationed inside Mount Hope Church; others were outside dressed in pink and black. The group of self-described homosexual anarchists, Bash Back!, claims the evangelical church is guilty of “transphobia and homophobia.”

The protesters outside the church were beating on buckets, shouting “Jesus was a homo” on a megaphone and carrying an upside-down pink cross. Fire alarms went off inside the church, protesters stormed the pulpit and a huge rainbow-colored flag was unfurled with the inscription, “IT’S OKAY TO BE GAY! BASH BACK!” The church was vandalized, obscenities were shouted and worshippers were confronted. There were no arrests.

Catholic League president Bill Donohue addressed this issue today:

“The real story here is the refusal of the mainstream media to cover what is surely one of the most disturbing events of 2008. If an organized group of gay bashers stormed a gay church, there is not a single sentient person in the United States who wouldn’t know about it.

“This is urban fascism come to America’s heartland. It must be quickly stopped before it gets out of control. We are contacting Mike Cox, the Attorney General of Michigan, calling for an investigation.”

Now, here's the difficult question - from the plurality of passages that address the issue of homosexuality in the Bible, cite to me even 1 passage where God approves of homosexual conduct!

Phillip, it's great that you love God.  So do I, but the fact is that we have separation of church and state.  Not all Americans are Christians.  Not all Christians have the same beliefs.  I can't stand people that use my religion to justify bigotry.  What ever happened to tolerance?

that has been the definition since the begginning of time.

Marriage has evolved over time.  In many societies men could have multiple wives.  Many Islamic scholars still think that a man can have four wives.  This is a longstanding tradition.  Traditional marriages also largely treat women as property of men. 

Also, this entire notion of marrying for love and getting to choose your spouse freely is a rather new concept that sprang up after the industrial revolution.  Most people married out of necessity to divide up labor and, oftentimes, avoid starvation.

Should we go back to dowries and arranged marriages? 

This notion that marriage has always existed as the current paradigm in America is absurd.  If you really want traditional marriage, treat your wife/wives life property and throw her/them in the kitchen.

Why should we change our laws to make something that is not natural ok.

You're right.  I guess we had better outlaw pharmaceuticals, computers, air conditioning and clothing.  We can get just fine with our natural lifestyles of running from predators and picking lice off each other.

For the short time gay marriages was allowed, Marriage lost its value to me.

You must have a very low opinion of marriage vows then.

How dare you compare me as an African American to a homosexual?  That's like saying that the color of anyone’s skin is a sin. That's racist!  The fact of the matter is; that California voted, if you felt so bad about Prop 8 then you should've done more to reject the vote.  To bad, so sad.  You don't see people protesting against Obama's front lawn because they wanted McCain to be president, America voted and the majority wins!  No tricks, no fix.    

See the problem is; that people want to read little parts of the bible that sugar coats what they want to hear.  Love? Please! God loves those who diligently seek him, God love's those who keep his commandments.  God doesn't hate people he hates their sin.  And the reason why God has not flooded the earth again like he did in Noah's days when the people were doing about the same thing theses are doing now; is because God has turned these people over to their sin. A reprobate mind. (Romans 1:18-26)  People who live in sin (any kind of sinful nature) and do not want to change, are in the hands of the devil, they will not see the Kingdom of heaven.

As for me I say homosexuals can be married in the court house, “If they must be married”.  But not in church because that's blaspheming against God.  Marriage is holy and any real pastor who is sold out for Christ will not go to hell for anybody. There's no money in the world that can make me go to hell for somebody's "happiness".  For what profits a man to gain the whole world and his soul? 

It’s so sad! There's nothing we can say to these people because God has turned them into the hands of the devil. They know not what they do, poor people, Satan’s controlling them, and is leading them to hell.  The road to heaven is narrow and only a few people will ever find it, and the road to hell is large and the gate is open for many who wish to choose the “easy” way. (Matthew 7:13-14)  The only thing we can say to them is Romans 10:9 and John 3:16-17) and even then they won’t receive it.

Father forgive them for they know not what they do! -Jesus.

When you obey me you remain in my love!-Jesus. (John 15:10)

I assure you unless you be born again; you can never see the kingdom of heaven! - Jesus. (John 3:3) 

If you want to talk tradition how is it that people can divorce? Why is that tradition ok to discard but Gay Marriage is such taboo.

GAY FASCISTS STORM CHURCH

Are you kidding me? That never happened.

Why should we change our laws to make something that is not natural ok.

What's so unnatural about love?  If homosexuality was so unnatural and was a choice, then why to other species that do not have the congnitive abilities of humans sometimes choose to mate with another animal of the same gender?  You need to open your eyes and accept love and leave the judging to a higher power. 

 Heterosexualism ends and life will end right behind it.

Yeah like we have to worry that all people will turn gay and human kind will end.  Give me a break!! The world is massively overpopulated as it is.  it would do us some good to have fewer couples out there reproducing.

Mushinronsha 

We can get just fine with our natural lifestyles of running from predators and picking lice off each other. 

Hilarious... couldn't agree more.  This whole supposed religious piety based upon some book written by some old dudes a long time ago is tired.  I would offer that the grip that these religious types have had on this country is loosening.  We can only hope that one day soon all those instruments used to unfairly control the masses will be regulated to the dustbins of society. 

"The Bible condems homosexuality, directly and indirectly in both Testaments.  The absurdity of Mr. Olbermann's commentary is that it suggests that to hold a spiritual view that condemns teh gay lifestyle must be inconsistant with God's love. "

The same Bible was used for centuries to support the institution of slavery.  This is not surprising, since the Bible, directly and indirectly in both Testaments, condones slavery and, specifically, counsels slaves to accept their lot in life and, even more specifically, instructs them in their specific duties to their masters.

Philip-720902.  As an African-American, I assume that you are thankful that the Bible is no longer literally applied as to slavery.  Why are you so insistent, then, that it be applied literally to deprive others of equal rights?

There are many passages in the Bible that reflect the primitive morals and bigotries held by a nomadic people in the Middle East of two and three thousand years ago.  The fact that it was reduced to writing by the religious zealots of the time ought not make us captives to their ideology.

Philip hold on a second.  Is your religion your only argument against gay marriage?  Because if it isn't I'd like to hear what that argument is. I can say I wouldn't be swayed from my pro-gay marriage stance, but at least there could be a debate.  But if your only argument is the religious one, well, then you have to remember that in this country lawmaking is not supposed to be guided by or based in religion and so your argument is rendered null and void.

Oh, almost forgot, great special commentary Keith!

I just want to say that I was touched by Keith's segment last night.  In my opinion, the only ones who might not have been touched by it would be homophobes and religious fanatics.  Anyone else, who had any form of human decency and understood the desire to love and be loved and to legalize your union with someone in front of not only god, but society, would have to have been touched by his words.

I agree with so many, who is the gay community hurting by wanting to get married?  I would think they only ones they are hurting would be themselves because with marriage comes the hassles of divorce when things don't work out.  They would not be taking anything away from the heterosexual community. 

I also admit to being appalled by the commercials that were done in favor of prop 8, trying to use a fear tactic by saying that children would be forced to learn about homosexual marriages in school and making it sound like it was going to corrupt our children.  I think there are enough heterosexual, horrid, abusive marriages that affect/corrupt our children that I don't think heterosexuals have the right to spout such utter drivel.

I just know that I hope proposition 8 is overturned as illegal and removing the rights of other humans.  Maybe they should just make marriage illegal for everyone, sure would cut down on the divorce rates *smile*

Mushinronsha,

Your right, marriage has evolved. BUT THE BASIS ARE THE SAME. ONE MAN ONE WOMAN.

In many societies men could have multiple wives.  Many Islamic scholars still think that a man can have four wives.  This is a longstanding tradition.  Traditional marriages also largely treat women as property of men. 

This is america. Why do think those other societies are conflicted from within. Thier morals and values are mixed up. Not to say ours are better, but we seem to heading in the right direction if not for morals then for genetic reason.  Marriage laws are just fine the way they are (equal rights for all MEN AND WOMEN THAT UNITE, NOT MEN WITH MEN AND WOMEN WITH WOMEN)and with vote my as well as millions of other americans including politicians who feel the same way i do will keep the disgrace of gay marriages from ever coming into play again.  I'm done with this gay section.

Thank you, Keith. You have officially become one of my heroes, along with Gavin Newsome. My wife and I are one of 18,000 couples who got married in California before Prop 8. She thanks you too.

onematt4youx4- why is gay marriage a disgrace? 

...will keep the disgrace of gay marriages from ever coming into play again. 

Sorry to disappoint you, but there is already same-sex marriage in two states and more will certainly be added in the coming decade.  This issue will never go away until there is marriage equality in all 50 states.  Looking at the trends of opinion among the younger generation, this seems inevitable.

Mr. Olbermann,  Thank you so much for your comments.   They meant a lot to me.

Phillip, It seems as though you really incorporate the bibles many teaching in your daily life so I was hoping that you could answer some questions that I’ve always had. 

(a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

(b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

(c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

(d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and
female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

(e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on Sunday (the Sabbath). In the book of Exodus verse 35:2 it clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

(f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than
homosexuality. I don't know. Can you settle this?

(g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a
defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

(h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

(i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

(j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16). Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14).

I seriously doubt if Tenn. will ever legalize same sex marriage. No matter how hard you try and make a point same sex marriage is not a civil right. No one forced you to choose this lifestyle, you did this on your own. You can love whomever you wish, but that is not a civil right. You can marry a woman, but the U.S. Constitution has nothing to say about marriage or that it is a right. The states and Congress can enact laws that clarify issues. Two states have decided to allow gay marriage and California has held a vote to amend their constitution to define marriage as between a man and woman. It would seem that those opposed to this vote are opposed to majority rules unless it suits their agenda. Now I don't donate to either of these groups, but it takes a real far left individual to believe that this is in any way a civil liberty. The supporters of gay marriage know exactly what would take place if they get this overturned. Our schools would be required to teach that the gay life style is normal, anyone speaking against them could be sued, they are condemning religion in this blog and would close churches who are against them, they would have churches declared as for profit and lose their tax exempt, since they can't grow their numbers by births, their only growth is thru converting or seducing young people to their way of life, as you can see there are consequences for legal action that haven't been considered.

Sorry to disappoint you, but there is already same-sex marriage in two states and more will certainly be added in the coming decade.  This issue will never go away until there is marriage equality in all 50 states.  Looking at the trends of opinion among the younger generation, this seems inevitable.

Don't worry those states will be quickly corrected once they realize what is wrong with that picture.

Phillip: You may wish to know that the same Bible from whence you draw your opinions on homosexuality also condones slavery, the beating of slaves, the treatment of slaves as property without rights, and the subjugation of women. Paul, in the New Testament, spoke at some length about how women should not be allowed to speak in church and should never be allowed to take a position of authority over a man. The Bible is a book written by men, just like any other book, and it is not infallible. If you wish to draw insight from it, then by all means do so, but be aware that the Bible itself speaks very highly of wisdom and the ability to exercise discernment. There's a reason God gave you a conscience and the ability to reason, and it's not so you could read a book written by His followers thousands of years ago and blindly treat it as the absolute truth without question.

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei

I seriously doubt if Tenn. will ever legalize same sex marriage. No matter how hard you try and make a point same sex marriage is not a civil right.

Eventually this will end up in front of the federal Supreme Court and be decided once and for all. And if the decision is that denying gay marriage is unconstitutional then sorry, bunkie, good 'ol Tenn. won't have a choice anymore than they can now restrict interracial marriages or any other kinds between two consenting adults of legal age.

As for the rest of your post, same tired crap. You people need some new talking points.

Your only talking point is to sue or you hope the Supreme Court will legalize your immorality..bunkie. You can't accept a vote that goes against you so you only talk of suits. Same ol crap... wouldn't you say??? When you can pass a baby through your organ then you would have a right to marriage...bunkie. Where are your new talking points. When the court does..ah when the court rules...when Hates freezes over or maybe when one of you guys grows a different sex organ.

I was so happy to here Keith's commentary yesterday, it was done with honest sincerity and passion. I know we will eventually get to a place where all US citizens really enjoy the liberty and justice for all we proclaim so proudly and I hope I live to see it.

I am a 50 years old, heterosexual woman. Married 23 years myself and I loathe that my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters are not allowed the same rights I have. It is beneath us as a body of people, it is cruel and inhumane.

The new law in Arkansas that doesn't allow loving homes to children with no home is one just as sickening...but an entirely new conversation.

"When you can pass a baby through your organ then you would have a right to marriage...bunkie."

Cool.  That gets back to the wonderful Christian doctrine of original sin.  Guilt is great, isn't it.  I'm glad that you subscribe to the biblical (at least New Testament view) that sex is original sin and only for procreation.

I may have to burn for eternity if my atheism is a mistake, but I have and will continue to enjoy the ride.  I assume the ride for you has been a bit less joyous, given that you clearly have only had sex for the specific purpose of procreation and only with you wife.  Never before marriage.  Never with yourself.  Not while asleep and dreaming.  Not in a fantasy.  Never with contraception, either by you or your partner.

I really admire such consistent, lifetime self-restraint.  Of course, if you slipped, even once, I'll wave to you on the next pyre, bunkie.

I am a resident of Florida where the hateful Amendment 2 passed last week.  I am not gay but am an avid supporter of the gay community.  I am appauled by the hate driven policy that is even being allowed on ballots.  I happened to catch Keith's commentary in between putting my children to bed and it brought tears to my eyes.  As a mother the greatest hope I have for my children is that they have a life filled with love, no matter who they choose to be with.  As Keith said "Why does it matter?"

Your only talking point is to sue or you hope the Supreme Court will legalize your immorality..bunkie. You can't accept a vote that goes against you so you only talk of suits. Same ol crap... wouldn't you say??? When you can pass a baby through your organ then you would have a right to marriage...bunkie. Where are your new talking points. When the court does..ah when the court rules...when Hates freezes over or maybe when one of you guys grows a different sex organ.

Good grief, you can't even spell "Hades" right, or is that your Freudian slip showing? Anyway, as I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread I'm glad you're not one of those pro-life folks that sue and sue because they never win. Oh, and the procreation thing . . . . AGAIN? Yes indeed, same 'ol crap.

It was a slip of spelling, but you have yet to answer any question regarding the Constitution of the United States. Show an amendment or a written statement that is a part of the Constitution that addresses marriage. A gay life style is by choice, it is not a civil right. A hetro life style is by choice, it to is not a civil right. You used a comparison of laws against interracial marriage. The suits brought by these people were not just about marriage, but about different races and their rights, not some sub group within a group who chose their life style. You would like to be able to call yourselves a minority, but then you wouldn't be white, black, brown, yellow, or any other race, you are a sexual minority not by race but by choice. If you chose to be a hermit and wanted all hermits to be recognized by law, would you support that as a reason to sue? If you are being denied housing, work, health coverage, freedom to live as you like, freedom of speech, then you would have a case for civil rights. You don't have such a case. You may have difficulty finding insurance for your partner, but that's a rule imposed by those companies not by the government. You seem to have problems with states recognizing civil unions, why is that? You can still call your partner husband or wife. Most states recognize common law rights between men and women, but they don't call it a legal marriage. You can deny all you want, but there is a larger agenda gay groups want out of this marriage suit. You are wanting this to advance your way of life on all the population. One more little irksome item, I didn't appreciate being labelled Bunkie is why I used  it to respond to your post. You go after the religion posters and others who are against your side with name calling and innuendos, but none of you ever answer a real question regarding the Constitution and you are set against majority rule. Where does that leave you but out of the mainstream. Every one has a choice how they live their lives, even gays.

One more item, you have no idea where I stand on pro-life or any other issue, but you certainly can see I don't support your side in the marriage question. Ass u me is what you get when you assume. Pre creation thing?? How do you increase your ranks?? Do you clone each other?? Do you seduce young people to your way of life?? When you are gone, where will your next generation come from?? I don't for one moment believe that all who are gay were born gay. If you feel so strongly that your sex was wrong then change it, but don't say you were born to want a person of the same sex.

I don't know where we come from, but amazing, isn't it?  We've been around since man's been around, not bad for a group that can't procreate.  And as society continues to get less uptight there will be more (except maybe in Tenn).

And hey, ass-u-me, what makes you think I have a problem with states that have domestic partnership or civil unions?  As a matter of fact not at all.  I have a domestic partnership license from CA., and I didn't get a marriage license when they were available.  Why?  Because my only interest in your precious "marriage" word is that it's the quickest, most expedient way for recognition on a federal level, where many of the rights I'm most interested in reside.  Obviously other gays don't feel that way and attach importance to the equality of having the exact same thing, but personally beyond identical rights I really have no interest.  You guys convinced me long ago that "marriage" stands for a dysfunctional mess in 50% of the cases out there.  I don't know if that's a "straight" thing (I've been in my relationship fourteen years and doing fine, thanks) but I certainly don't need it.  But of course I'll fight for it because it's the fight that's being fought.  I spent two years working for a domestic partnership / civil union law in Oregon, which the religious wing-nuts said they'd have no problem with when they pushed measure 36 through (essentially the same as Prop 8).  Guess what?  They LIED, and fought it tooth and nail once it came up.  Actually, as has been suggested several times in this thread the best answer is that ALL licenses issued by the government should be called civil unions, then you folks can go play your "it's my treehouse and you can't come in" games to your heart's content on the religious side.  Unfortunately, that will never happen so we work with the hand we're dealt.

As far as not knowing your position on abortion, umm, that was SARCASM, not a real stab at your opinion on the issue.   I was using it as an example of a generally religious right wing issue whose proponents use the exact same tactics that seem to be infuriating you with gay advocates.  In fact there's an article on MSNBC about it right now.  They also got their behind kicked BIGTIME in this election but don't seem to be accepting that it's "the will of the people".

But "pre creation"?  Don't know what it is but sounds interesting.

Oh yeah, the constitutional thing.  It'll probably end up here -

LOVING ET UX. v. VIRGINIA  SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES 388 U.S. 1 June 12, 1967, Decided MR. CHIEF JUSTICE WARREN delivered the opinion of the Court.

This case presents a constitutional question never addressed by this Court: whether a statutory scheme adopted by the State of Virginia to prevent marriages between persons solely on the basis of racial classifications violates the Equal Protection and Due Process Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment. For reasons which seem to us to reflect the central meaning of those constitutional commands, we conclude that these statutes cannot stand consistently with the Fourteenth Amendment.

And don't bother coming back with "it's not a race issue". Obviously it isn't. It'll be up to the Supreme Court to decide whether the same principles apply. As for the rest of us, it's like the 'ol saying "Opinions are like . . . . . . "

Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, ¹⁰nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, ²⁷and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. ²⁸And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

Quoting scripture, gee that's original. Haven't seen that in this thread before . . . . .

Where did HUMAN BEINGS come from?  Not from gay marraige.  There is something fundamentally wrong with gay marraige.  It is not natural in the propagation human kind--that requires male and female.  And that is one of the main purposes of marraige--to bring together male and female, to create a union--to form a family and continue life through the upbringing of children which the union creates (fruit of their love).  The love spoken of in this "special comment" is not natural, but the result of misguided affection, and does not bring forth any fruit.

aljeff

Maybe you should look around and find we are not in the middle ages. It is the 21st century. Gay couples can have children through artificial insemination, surrogate mothers and adoption.

Next you will say we are unfit to be parents. There you will be wrong too.

ajeff,

Why don't you read through the rest of the thread. That silly point has been responded to about 8,000 times. Marriage is not defined in any legal sense as your preposterous post suggests. And as far as what you BELIEVE marriage is for, well, that's your right. But of course it doesn't cover people who simply want to get married for love and not procreation, infertile couples, blah blah blah.

Does Mr. Olbermann feel the same way about polygamy or other types of "marriage"?

Allow me to state what others are probably afraid to...

Philip, what makes you the authority for black people? Please speak only for yourself, because you embarrass the hell out of some of us black folk.

I've got another ideal. Instead of criticizing gay people about their sexual "transgressions," how about you use that energy to educate the many young black men who have absolutely no love or regard for women, and who treat them like hoebags from "da club?" What about the many young black women who have no regard or respect for themselves, acting like a bunch of hookers in heat?

How are black people modeling themselves for the "sanctity of marriage" cause? Give me a break. What moral high standing does mainstream black culture demonstrate that justifies condemnation of the morality, or lack thereof, of another group?

Please, slide your glass-house having behind down from the cross, "brother"- somebody needs the wood...

aljeff- you speak the language of a complete fool...

"The love spoken of in this "special comment" is not natural, but the result of misguided affection, and does not bring forth any fruit."

Who are you to quantify what is in hearts of strangers? Do you really believe that you can tell me as FACT, that my partner, whom I have been with for over 13 years- through it all, does not love me?

You don't know me from Adam, yet you somehow know that I am not truly in love? From your argument, due to the fact that I am not filled with sperm from a "hubby" on a regular basis, my love is not genuine. Now THAT is a sound argument if I've ever heard of one...

I wonder why I'm even engaging with the corroded thought process that you apparently possess...

Thank you, Keith, for your eloquent and touching words about love.  I was already a big fan of yours but now you are my hero.  You made me cry and I wish everyone could hear your words and listen with their hearts.  Love is love...

I am a California lesbian (originally from Chicago) and have 3 siblings who are also gay .  Believe me when I tell you that none of us chose to be gay.  For most parents, having 4 gay children out of 5 would be devastating.  But in my case, I am extremely blessed and grateful to have the most accepting, loving parents that any child could hope to have.  My parents exemplify love and will soon be celebraing their 60th anniversay.   Their relationship, commitment and love for each other is the kind of love we all dream about.  Ten years ago, I was fortunate and blessed to find my true love and we were able to finally marry before the vote on Prop 8 was passed.  Being gay, I never thought I would ever have the opportunity to marry the one I love - now the dream hangs in the balance and it hurts.  We are not out to harm or interfere in anyone's life - this is about love between 2 people.  No matter how this turns out, my love for my spouse, partner and best friend can never be taken away. 

"We could never understand how gays getting married affected our marriage??"  

I've heard that ridiculous accusation over and over.   The same can be asked of polygamous marriage, marrying a blood-relative closer than 2nd cousin, or any crime.  How does a man's marriage to two wives affect me?  How does a murder on a New York subway affect me?   Seriously, if I decide not to have children, why can't I marry my 1st cousin or sister ?   As a society, we need to revise marriage.  A tweaky law here and there to satisfy a 1% minority is bad policy.

I hav nothing agaist civil unions. I have nothing against gay relationships. People can be whatever they want with whomever they want. I do believe that I am of the same understanding of a lot of people who supported the ban. Marriage is not about love. It is about Faith. In the Catholic church it is a Holy Sacrament. The problem with this whole mess is the word "MARRIAGE". If gays and lesbians were only looking for equal rights they would stay away from that word. Marriage is about religion and not about government. People on both sides are fighting a holy war on this issue. As we have seen with the crusades and more recently with Sept 11th warriors fighting for religious reasons lead to horrible things.

I do applaud people fighting for things they believe in, but we really do need to understand what all this fighting is for.

Thanks Keith you and msnbc are the only news that deserves to be called news.  I was raised catholic and I came out last July at age 26...I was angered at this proposition even though I reside in Tennesse which outlawed our rights a few years ago, because the people like me in California they got the right to marry...but unfortunatly the biggots couldn't let this law stay for long...and why because they are ignorant and self-rieghtious which I believe..even though I no longer believe in god or jesus...is a form of judgment which thier (Christians) own bible says that "...those who are sin-free may cast the first stone"  and being gay is NOT a "sin" so I applaud you Keith.  You are the reason I still watch the news.